John: I heard on the news today how government officials are concerned that increasing enemy action against the United States, assaults of different kinds against the United States like biological warfare and computer attacks, that sort of thing, terrorism. You probably know in Indonesia the Moslems in Indonesia are destroying a lot of Christian churches. That�s going on in India also. There�s a party in India that�s rising in power. There�s a lot of destruction of Christian churches there. The reason I�m bringing this up is that it�s just part of the ongoing problem of intolerance of one group for another and when the increase in populations in different nations along with the increase in energetic devices like chain saws, guns, or bombs and so the basic problem isn�t the presence of guns. The basic problem is human relations.

Pauline: Yeah yeah And human relations these days seem to be governed by economics more than anything else. You know on an international scale. It�s interesting when you get beyond the sectarian struggles you can see there are other pressures there that don�t have to do with religion or point of view.

Pauline: Just that as I look at what goes on in the world it seems to me that the power struggles seem to be who�s going to control the resources of the country. And one of the reasons that we have world-wide interests is that there are world-wide interests in both the natural resources and the resources in people I think all over the world. We�re shipping things out to china to have inexpensive labor worked on it. You buy things and its from Indonesia, San Salvador, or Guatemala, and I don�t think it�s accidental that in those places there are upsets that take the form of religious persecution and religious uprising. Anyway I�m wandering. What were you going to say, John?

John: Well one thing is if one is going to have a peace center, then one is going to have to explore these different things. Don�t you agree?

Pauline: Oh I think, Yeah that�s important.

John: And if one�s going to have a peace center that really makes a difference, because there�ve been lots of peace centers, haven�t there?

Pauline: uh hummm yeah

John: And haven�t there been lots of places that have been trying to help bring peace?

Pauline: Yeah, there have.

John: And yet the situation continues as before, doesn�t it?

Pauline: Ummhmmm yeah.

John: So if you think in terms of increase in the powerful equipment, with the rise of technology, you understand how wars have become more and more destructive.

Pauline: Umm hmmm, yeah.

John: So what�s going to break that trend? What�s going to stop that trend to human destruction? Do you think the existing peace centers have a testable answer to that question?

Pauline: Uhh I don�t think. I don�t think that by and large they�re really in touch with the people whose lives are most affected. I think that they�re trying to do it from the top, and that doesn�t take them very far.

John: When I say peace center, does any name come to mind?

Pauline: Well, know, actually you know I�m thinking about other groups which don�t call themselves peace center but which make an attempt to sort of a person to person contact. I�m thinking of the Quakers. I�m thinking of, oh, the city of Arcata and their contact with their sister city the contact with the sister city in Japan where the attempt seems to be on a more person to person level. What were you thinking of, John?

John: Well, when I was about twenty years old I went to a seminar who was conducted by a young man who was a graduate student in physics. He knew me from other contexts and there was this seminar on peace and the situation in Korea the year was around 1959 or 1960 when I was about twenty years old. And there was a lot of discussion about the intricate details of what was going on and it was all over my head, but I posed the question, which I still pose today is why can�t people stand back from the situation and see that they all have the same common needs and desires, and they all would like to cooperate and live in peace and yet somehow they�re blinded and they�re not able to do this. And the young man who was a graduate school who knew me said that I was too intelligent, that that was too intelligent an observation.

Pauline: Oh, really!

John: Somehow it was beyond the intelligence of people to grasp such an idea. Do you have any comments to make on that? Can you explain what he meant?

Pauline: I sure don�t know what he meant. Because the people I�ve seen that I admire the most who are working toward peace are people who are working within their framework in that way.

John: Well he was a very intelligent person and what I said I don�t remember exactly but it had to do with stepping back and looking from a distance. That seems to be very hard for people to do because people are living in the moment and living in the moment is supposed to be good. Live for the present time, for the present moment. Isn�t that part of the new age idea?

Pauline: Well, that�s uh....

John: It�s certainly been one of the Hindu ideas of living in the moment of now.

Pauline: Yeah, uhhh..

John: And not thinking, not taking a look, and thinking, and I think that�s what this young man meant. People tend not to think. They tend more to react with anger or with tension and anxiety and that reduces the ability to think. When you�re just reacting with emotions you don�t think. You can�t think intelligently. Does that make sense?

Pauline: Yeah. Yeah.

John: So when he called me too intelligent I think he just meant that I was thinking too much and expecting other people to think more instead of just feeling with their emotions. Because after all, when the troops start marching down the street and when people start burning churches and burning buildings and stuff like that obviously there�s reason to be afraid because there�s violence out of control.

Pauline: Yeah.

John: Think of violence running out of control and the regular people like you and me. If people started burning down buildings in Arcata and people were burning churches and there were people walking around with guns, you and I aren�t strong and muscular and we�re not good shots with guns. We can�t live that kind of life then there�s nothing we can do but run away, really, or call the National Guard or something.

Pauline: Yeah.

John: Get some strong military forces in there to quell the riot. It�s still the old rule by force, rather than realizing where that leads.

Pauline: Yeah.

John: �Cause if you think about it, you realize where that rule by force leads. Think about it today with the increase in super-energetic devices. They calculate far beyond the capacity of any human being to do.

Pauline: Well, yeah. Yeah. But you know my sense of it is that those who are supporting the development are those superhuman machines are those who really don�t care much about their fellow human beings. �Cause wasn�t it when the H bomb was developed they said you can wipe out the population without wiping out the manufacturing base? They talked about some device that could do that.

John: That was the neutron bomb.

Pauline: Yeah. That was it!

John: Let�s get back to the statement you made. It was a statement about the makers of technological devices. Could you state it again.

Pauline: That it�s developed by people who are not interested in the human impact but are interested only in the technology or resources, or, you know potential development of an area.

John: Yeah. But suppose I give you a counter example that everybody knows about or could research out, because it�s a well documented case. It would give a counter example to that exertion. The man�s name is Alexander Graham Bell. He was concerned about deaf people. His wife was deaf and his wife was deaf. He was working on devices to help deaf people.

Pauline: Umm Hmmm

John: He stumbled upon this invention which became the telephone. The telephone grew into the fax-modem.

Pauline: Oh boy...

John: which is an integral part of the computer, so that�s an example of a person who was definitely an humanitarian wouldn�t you agree?

Pauline: Yeah.

John: You might want to study some more of his work. He was an humanitarian person plus a genius in technology. Now that doesn�t prove that every person who is a genius in technology is also an humanitarian. But you see the kind of statement that you made there has been weakened. Do you see how it�s been weakened?

Pauline: well...

John: Its a kind of generalization.

Pauline: Yeah. Yeah.

John: OK. But the trouble is that when people deal with that kind of language and that kind of communication, everything is soft. There�s nothing you can depend upon as being true. it�s a communication problem and a thought problem that is running all through the world. Do you understand what I�m saying?

Pauline: Say some more.

John: Well when ideas like you suggested are suggested by lots of people without a serious inquiry into the truth of those statements, then it�s easy for a demagogue or somebody like that to say things that run people over into his direction and gains followers.

Pauline: Well, I agree if you�re talking about all technology and all development . I�m very specifically talking about the capacity to send biological bombs over a territory, or the development of any kind of bomb.

John: Well once the technology gets developed, let�s take chain saws. Once the chain saw is available and people know how to make chain saws, then the chain saw is a tool, a device. A bomb is a tool, a device. Certain kinds of bombs can be used to deflect asteroids. An asteroid could fall to earth and hit the earth and wipe out all human life.

Pauline: Good point!

John: Are you aware of that?

Pauline: Yeah.

John: Have you heard about Asteroids?

Pauline: Yeah.

John: And there�s talk about it and concern about it. And the bomb technology. Bomb technology has been used to open up caverns underground, you know, do different things that are not destructive to human life. A bomb is just a device for liberating large amounts of physical energy in a short period of time. That�s what a bomb is. It�s just a device.

Pauline: Yeah. Yeah. Very good point.

John: A chain saw can be used to kill people.

Pauline: Yeah.

John: So can a fountain pen. You can take a fountain pen and stab somebody in the eye with it. and blind them. Can�t you do that?

Pauline: Umm humm

John: With a ball point pen?

Pauline: umm humm

John: And so it�s possible to argue that technology is neutral. Technology is a product of science and science is a neutral study. Science and technology work together to help humans understand how the world works, how the universe works.

Pauline: Umm humm. Umm hmmm.

John: The problem is deeper than what you�re saying. You know there were violent people before there was much science and technology.

Pauline: Ummm hmmm.

John: The problem is in the functioning of the human brain. The problem is in the way society rewards the children who are aggressive and violent and try to negate other people who aren�t the way they are. That�s where the problem is.

Pauline: Umm hmmm. Umm hmmm.

John: Do you agree, or disagree?

Pauline: Well I think that�s a big part of it. I think there are other things there but I think that�s a big part of it.

John: Well, don�t you think a peace center has to be concerned about this problem of what schools and what other educational institutions try to reward in children?

Pauline: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

John: Don�t you think this is a fundamental matter?

Pauline: Yeah. Yeah.

John: Because if a society or a people says, �OK. We�re going to support a center for education or a center for peace or for human relations, and everyone�s going to tithe ten percent of their income to this institution!�, without questioning what does a peace center or a social institution have to focus on, then they�re wasting their money. You know. Aren�t they wasting their money?

Pauline: I�d say so.

John: Over the long run?

Pauline: Yeah. Yeah.

John: What institutions exist in France, in England, in Germany, in the United States and other nations? And think about the Middle East. What institutions exist in the Middle East which are supposed to be designed for the social good?

Pauline: I�m not familiar enough with them.

John: Oh yes you are. What institutions are organized for the social good?

John: Don�t they have schools over there in the Middle East, where children are educated? Don�t they have colleges and universities over there?

Pauline: Yeah. Yeah.

John: And don�t they have churches over there, too?

Pauline: Yeah. They seem to have churches and mosques and-

John: So what�s missing? What�s missing in these places?

(There is a long pause)

Pauline: It�s a whole big thing for me, John. It�s not as simple as one little answer. How do you see it? We have maybe five more minutes.

John: Well, let�s just consider how answers are found. How are answers found? There�s so many people saying the same thing about this particular subject, which has to do with the social good, that they say, �Nobody has the answer.�

Pauline: Umm hmmm

John: Or they say �There is no answer�. Or they say, �There�s no one answer.� We hear that all the time.

Pauline: Umm hmmm.

John: Now isn�t that very negative?

Pauline: Well I think...

John: It�s certainly a denial, isn�t it?

Pauline: Well I think when you say there�s no one answer....

John: Well that�s what people tell me. That�s not what I say.

Pauline: umm hmmm.

John: That�s what lots of people tell me.

Pauline: umm hmmm. So what�s your reply to that?

John: Well to start with, my reply is to ask �How are answers found?�

Pauline: Umm hmmm.

John: There�ve been millions of answers found. How do people find what�s true? How do people find out what the truth is? So what do you say? What do they teach in school? What do you learn in school about getting answers? How do you get answers? Everybody learns about this stuff. How have answers been obtained in the past?

Pauline: Well, there are a lot of different ways. And uh. I don�t know. The way you are looking at it is different from the way it is presented.

John: Suppose... Do you see that chair over there?

Pauline: Umm hmmm.

John: Suppose I tell you there�s a mouse under that cushion in that chair over there.

Pauline: Umm hmmm.

John: How do you find out if there�s a mouse under that cushion or not? What do you do?

Pauline: he he he he he

John: What the hell do you do?

Pauline: he he he he he he he Well,

John: Tell me.

Pauline: I might just trust you, that if you say there�s a mouse under that cushion,

John: You�re just playing word games, now, see?

Pauline: He he he he he. Yeah.

John: When people play word games, and play the devil�s advocate, they�re wasting a lot of time.

Pauline: Yeah. Yeah.

John: Don�t you agree with that?

Pauline: Yeah, I...

John: And if you�re five years old, what would you do.

Pauline: Well, if I were five years old, I might go look.

John: You might go look? You mean you�d walk over to that chair, pick up the cushion, and see if there�s really a mouse under it?

Pauline: Yeah.

John: Well, does that have any bearing on what Christ said about entering the kingdom of heaven on Earth? That�s inside of you?

Pauline: Umm hmmm Well it makes sense. Yeah. It makes sense.

John: You see, Christ tried to teach something, and He got nailed before he�d been around about three years trying to teach what He had to teach.

Pauline: Umm hmmm.

John: So how can people ever know what He had to teach? He never had a chance to teach. How long did Einstein get to teach? He lived for decades. So isn�t that a valid point? Pauline: Well go on with it, say more about it.

John: I don�t have to go on with it. How can anyone challenge it? Christ was killed. And the problem is that this problem�s getting worse in the world, because there are more and more people, more and more energetic devices, and all they need is a few inflammatory Hitler-like people to get them worked up into a frenzy

Pauline: ummm hmmm

John: And start them wreaking havoc. Don�t you see? Don�t you see?

Pauline: Umm hmmm.

John: Do you see that clearly?

Pauline: Yeah.

John: It�s not a fantasy that people have to be concerned about this problem. And as long as people are going to dismiss it by saying, �There is no answer� or �No one can find the answer�, that�s just total black negativity.

Pauline: Umm hmmm. Um hmmm

John: It doesn�t matter whether you�re smiling, it doesn�t matter whether you�re listening to beautiful music. That doesn�t make any difference.

Pauline: Umm hmmm.

John: It�s black negativity.

Pauline: Yeah. I think you�re right. My only thought about it is, that it�s not as easy to change a whole world.

John: Well one has to start with one person.

Pauline: ummm hmmm.

John: And interest one person in the new concept. And if part of the concept is helping other people as you yourself are helped, then that�s a growth process as the teacher is helping others. And that is helping others understand how you yourself were changed. How you were changed in your particular outlook. Does that make any sense?

Pauline: Yeah. I think that�s true, John. I�m not really arguing the point with you, it�s just from what I�ve seen.....

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